Views on Tertiary Education

[aussiemum]

Is tertiary education valuable for those of you who have SB?

I’m a non-SB woman who never attended uni. I felt it wasn’t necessary for girls back then. As long as we mastered the IBM selectric typewriter and possessed decent comprehensive skills, a job wasn’t hard to come by. Properties were much more affordable, and it wasn’t hard for those who never attended uni to pay off their mortgage by their late 20s.

Unfortunately, times have changed. Knowing how to type means nothing these days. Property values are skyrocket high. Girls (SB or not) will be disadvantaged without a tertiary education. As my daughter’s SB doesn’t come with physical and cognitive impairments, I sent her to a college (private secondary school) to better prepare her for uni. We have decided to foot her 1st year uni bill (because she is only 17 on her 1st year), half of her 2nd and 3rd year uni fees.

Do you invest in your SB child’s tertiary education? Are SB children expected to pay for their tertiary education?

[Dodger67]

I don't believe having SB or not is even remotely relevant - everyone must get the best education they can and as a parent it's your responsibility to see to it that all your children get a fair chance to make the most of their opportunities to develop their intellect.

Funding differs between different countries and even different states or provinces within a country. In some places university education is heavily subsidised in others it isn't. Some places have plentiful scholarship and bursary opportunities, some don't. In some cases there is specific funding or financial aid available for students with disabilities.

It's impossible to generalise so it is really best to discuss the issues directly with the specific university's student advisors.

[LisaJoy]

Well, I am significantly biased on this question, since I'm a university professor! I agree with Dodger -- the sb isn't relevant. Post-secondary education is pretty much a must in today's economy. It doesn't necessarily have to be university, depending on what the person wants to do. In the US, there are community colleges and technical schools that offer 2-yr degrees and are vocationally focused. In other words, they prepare people for specific technical careers, like welding, or computer networking, or MRI technologist; you can even become a registered nurse with a 2-yr degree, although people with a Bachelor of Science in nursing (4-yr degree) make more money.

For someone who has done a university preparatory program in high school, a 4-yr college is a great choice and will open up worlds of opportunity. It's a great chance to explore lots of different subjects (and career possibilities) that you didn't even know existed in high school.

I would encourage you to give your daughter as much financial support as you can, but it would also be a good idea for her to work after her first year (if she's not already working). Getting that "real world" experience -- even if it is just being a clerk in a retail store -- is an important part of education.

I would also encourage you to give her some leeway to explore different subjects and change her mind about what direction she wants to go. Most people at 17 or 18 have no idea what they want to do with their lives.

[petiteblond]

I guess tertiary education is slightly less important for those with sb. In the US, a person with severe enough sb can just work part-time to earn just enough to qualify for SSI (Supplemental Security Income). Qualifying for SSI comes with another present- Medicaid (free healthcare). SSI is a blessing that able-bodied people will never get to enjoy.

Statistically, people with sb pass away sooner than people without sb... so the benefits of higher income from tertiary education wouldn't pay off as much over a lifetime for people with sb.

I think (and hope) that my university education will pay off for me.

[Dodger67]

WARNING!
This is a SEVERE RANT!!!
If you feel insulted by it - don't cry that I didn't warn you.

Get a proper professional qualification and you can make a better living than Medicaid or any other welfare can provide.

Try living in a country where such luxury level welfare doesn't exist. The maximum welfare payment (or tax deduction) any disabled person can get in South Africa is just a little over US$100/month.

Relying on the government healthcare system is a guarantee of a short and nasty life.

A few years ago I had open heart surgery, the total bill at a private hospital was around US$30,000 and I had the operation two days afer the problem was diagnosed. My medical insurance (cost under US$200/month) covered everything except about US$1000 for various "sundries".

Had I gone to a government hospital (where the so-called nurses go out on strike anytime a supervisor "harasses" any worker) I would have been on a waiting list several months long and stood a pretty good chance of dying anyway - if not from waiting then from a hospital infection.


===Sensitive people must stop reading here.===


So - get a proper education, enter a profession and work hard until you get driven around in a Rolls Royce with a "FCKTHEPOOR" licence plate.

The alternative is go live in a Nanny State like Sweden or Finland where in exchange for "free" burocratised health-care you give up a whole lot of personal freedom.
Example - The government controls how much beer you are allowed to buy and then they add a tax that's a multiple of the actual price of the beer on top.

People who have no ambition beyond being a welfare sponge make me :puke:

[Gymp]

I guess tertiary education is slightly less important for those with sb. In the US, a person with severe enough sb can just work part-time to earn just enough to qualify for SSI (Supplemental Security Income). Qualifying for SSI comes with another present- Medicaid (free healthcare). SSI is a blessing that able-bodied people will never get to enjoy.

Statistically, people with sb pass away sooner than people without sb... so the benefits of higher income from tertiary education wouldn't pay off as much over a lifetime for people with sb.

I think (and hope) that my university education will pay off for me.

Reading that really irritates me....What ever happened to "you get out of life what you put into it" ...

I wasn't afforded a post secondary education but I ended up doing rather well for myself and now live a comfortable life.I worked hard and many hours to get here and am proud of it.I would have never thought of living off of government welfare,I'd have rather been living under a bridge eating Alpo dog food than take money that I didn't earn (I have done that in my past)

Right on Roger!

Gymp

[angel]

Ok i got to get in on this one. I agree with dodger and gymp. I didn't get a complete secondary education as while i was in the middle of my 4th semester my son's tethered cord issues became a huge problem and he almost died as a result. I finshed 2 years and started working after that. There was NO WAY i could have made it on SSI alone and i never intended to. I don't want to be poor all my life. I grew up that way and I knew when I got old enough to work or go to school that i was going to do just that. Circumstances being what they were i had to start working instead of finishing school and I did. I held down 2 jobs working 16 hour days 4 days a week and 8 hour days 7 days a week. With SSI you can't pay rent, utilities (and i am talking the bare minimum of electric and fuel) and also put even the cheapest food on the table. As for medicade when I turned 21 they cut me off. Not that i didn't qualify I did but medicade is for children, and in the state i lived in i didn't qualify for medicare. Medicade wouldn't pay for my crutches, my meds nothing.
I worked hard for everything i had and felt and still feel that if you are able to work then you should get out there and do so. I don't think anyone deserves a free ride unless they are absolutly incapable of having any marketable skill. That is a very very very small part of the population. I am going into my mid 30's and i am just now able (espically now that i am married and there are 2 incomes) to say that we are getting to a comfortable life style. I struggled just like eveyone else did and i am so damn proud that i cut it on my own.

Angel

[NerdaliciouS]

And I agree with the above. Disability is a last resort. I'd much rather be in college, working toward something I WANT. I know I don't want to be poor when I'm older, not scraping by month to month. That's happened most of my life, why would I want it to continue? I'm lucky I have internet right now, I never had a computer until I was 13, which seems really weird nowadays. Just because I didn't graduate from high school yet, doesn't mean I'm an idiot, I had issues I had to deal with, I pulled through and put MYSELF back in; it doesn't mean I want a free ride. 'Cause, well, free rides generally consist of drug addicts and serial killers.

Will I get it if I need to? Absolutely I will. But I give things time first. Even if it's getting into vocational services, or failing time and time again with each job interview. It's discouraging, but it's that much sweeter once you succeed. Here? You get 900 or so a month (CAD). Rent generally starts at 800, and you can't spend more than 500 monthly. ...It's not good. Why would you want to live that life when you could have so much more? The ONLY reason I would be getting on it, is if I'm unable to find a job before I turn 19. After I hit the big 1-9, I'm off my parents insurance, med prices will skyrocket, and I need surgery right now. I don't think it would be smart to leave myself with nothing. But point being; last resort.

It doesn't matter if you're male or female. Get a damn education unless you want to flip burgers all your life. And guess what? Even fast food restaurants prefer educations over nothing! So you're screwed! Go live off the government if you're a lazy asshole who just wants to fck around for the rest of your life. You probably won't even have enough money to do that!

Just like Angel, I may not be exactly at her point yet, but I'm damn proud of every obstacle I've overcome, because I did it myself, not with a bunch of help (minus my mom, my mom has helped a ton! :D But she stops when she needs to, and I still do most myself.). And honestly, if you want something, go for it, 'cause no one else is going to give it to you. Especially not the government. It's supposed to be a last resort, not a welcome mat.

[LisaJoy]

It is no longer accurate to say that people with sb don't live as long as other people. With good medical care, a person with sb can have a normal lifespan. In particular, the OP's daughter has minimal involvement -- her primary symptom is incontinence. As long as she takes care of her kidneys, there's no reason to think she won't live as long as anybody else.

That being said -- why should someone before forced to have a lower QUALITY of life, just because the QUANTITY might be less than average? Quite frankly, no one is guaranteed their next breath, so EVERYBODY should make the most possible out of every day. I believe that even severely disabled people who won't be able to work full time should be able to get as much and whatever type of education is available to enrich their lives.

SSI/medicaid is essential for people who are severely disabled or medically fragile and/or whose care requires a personal attendant and/or is so time consuming as to make working enough for self-support not feasible. Anyone who is not in that category really should not be receiving SSI/medicaid, and the fact that such people DO receive it means that people with a greater need get turned away. BTW -- I'm NOT talking about parents receiving supplemental ssi and a medicaid waiver for their disabled children. I'm talking about adults who choose to make living on SSI an intentional permanent life choice to avoid working. Frankly, I can't see why anyone would want to, unless it is the only way to secure health insurance! Most people on SSI live below the poverty level.

The sad thing is that many people are trapped on SSI and in poverty who would like to get out of it and be self-supporting, but have encountered so many obstacles to independence that they've given up.

People who are interested in this subject should read Paul Longmore's Why I Burned My Book and Other Essays on Disability.

[petiteblond]

Reading that really irritates me....What ever happened to "you get out of life what you put into it" ...

I wasn't afforded a post secondary education but I ended up doing rather well for myself and now live a comfortable life.I worked hard and many hours to get here and am proud of it.I would have never thought of living off of government welfare,I'd have rather been living under a bridge eating Alpo dog food than take money that I didn't earn (I have done that in my past)

Right on Roger!

Gymp

oops, sorry, didn't mean to start an uproar. I got a little too carried over about SSI last week after getting educated about it by an older friend.

Go live off the government if you're a lazy asshole who just wants to fck around for the rest of your life. You probably won't even have enough money to do that!


:sign0020: SSI + f-ing around could be a decent income if you have the skills. But yeah, once you reach 30, it's gonna be tough to make a living that way. That is if you don't die from AIDS yet.

It is no longer accurate to say that people with sb don't live as long as other people. With good medical care, a person with sb can have a normal lifespan. In particular, the OP's daughter has minimal involvement -- her primary symptom is incontinence. As long as she takes care of her kidneys, there's no reason to think she won't live as long as anybody else.

I didn't know that. I would be glad to reach 50.

[jellolegs23]

Petiteblond,

You would be glad to reach age 50? You will more than likely reach age 70 to 90 years old with the proper medical care. I think you have a lot to learn about the disability system and your disability. The disability system doesn't give a crap about your happiness, well-being, or whether you live or die and this is the life you choose willingly? You are short changing your life by a LOT. Most people with a disability can't wait to get off the system and live independently and be happy. They are not told how much money they can have in their bank accounts, where they can live because the only housing they can afford is low income housing in a bad neighborhood with high crime rates, they can have anything they want that they are able to afford, they are not hindered by which medical procedures they can or cannot have because Medicare/Medicaid will hinder which medical procedures you are able to have and how often you can have it, they can see any doctor or go to any facility they wish with private insurance.

Under Medicare/Medicaid you are hindered by which facility will accept that type of insurance because these facilities are not paid FULL value of their services so they can't afford take many people with this insurance if they decide to take ANY. One hospital in my city just laid off a bunch of workers because of the low reimbursement rate Medicare/Medicaid has on their patients. Hospitals and clinics can't afford to operate that way so they either limit the number of people they take on with that insurance or they simply don't accept it at all! You have to go to designated facilities that accept this insurance for literally every service you want (e.g. eye glasses, counseling services, dentist, etc.) Doctors sometimes won't even tell you all your treatment options based on your insurance because if your insurance won't pay for the treatment option then why bother telling you about it, aka the gag order! You pretty much have to beg to get anything and they still don't care. The places that accept this insurance usually are of low quality with poor customer service because they know you don't have any other choice. They are not going to spend tons of money to improve services when they know you don't have any choice of another service to go to. Many people who live on the system have shortened lifespans because the system doesn't take care of your needs, the shortened lifespan is not indicative of your medical condition but the conditions under which you live in. Medicare/Medicaid is great if you don't have any other option but if given the chance to have something better like private insurance, wouldn't you want that opportunity? The truth is you do have that opportunity provided you work very hard at it!

Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are being taken in by the fact you can get free money and you think because you get free money you think you don't have to work very hard to live a decent life. That is not true, to live a decent life you have to work your butt off in school to get a decent education so you can compete with the rest of the population for a decent job. You want a decent job so you can get off the system and not be hindered by the system's limitations to get what you need and want out of life! I seriously hope for yourself you reconsider your life goals and expectations as you will be living a long time, its your choice whether you want to live that life in happiness without many limitations or in pure misery with people telling you what you can and cannot do.

P.S. Sorry to be so harsh but I think you have some very misguided ideas about the system and your disability (achievable goals), these ideas are dangerous to your well-being if continued on your current path.

[jellolegs23]

Bottom line is people with disabilities need secondary education. People without disabilities find it hard enough to find a decent job without a college education. People with disabilities need that extra education to better compete with many other able-bodied people for a decent job.

[petiteblond]

I totally agree with you jellolegs23.

SSI is my dream way of living ONLY while in university. If I can earn $900+/month working part time and qualify for $600+/month in SSI, I'll be over the moon! $1,500+/month is quite shabby for an adult living in the US, but is quite tantalizing for a teenage university student. You must have forgotten how you would feel getting that amount of money as a teenager. You have probably forgotten how those young faces light up the first time they get hold of their first paycheck (which is most likely a few hundred $ from part-time work).

However, for life after university, I would NOT want to be depend on SSI. I have a general idea how crappy the SSI/Medicaid/Medicare system is.

You weren't harsh at all :happy065:
My take: $600 SSI income is depressing to a 30yr old who is raising a family, but it makes a typical teenage student drool.
So... I ONLY want to be on SSI on the few years (university years) that it would make me drool. :26aa:

[aussiemum]

TA for the replies!

I highly encourage my kids to attend uni regardless of sb. My views have evolved over the past few decades. I used to believe that most girls and disabled people need not attend uni. And yes of course I am old--- 41.

Lisajoy, my daughter has been holding casual jobs for 3 years. So far I haven't made her pay for anything. She's rich enough to afford 50% of her school fees :p
Tertiary education is affordable to most. Compared to the U.S., uni school fees are usually slightly lower in Australia. It may surprise some of you that the adult minimum wage in Australia is AU$15/hr (exchange rate is currently in parity with the US$).

[eng188]

I got an associates (2 yr) degree in 1997. I wouldn't say I regret it, but I also wasn't ready to plunge right into tertiary right after high school.

Once I transfered to university, my parents kept getting on me to file a major. But I was never clear on their reasons, and I was all too happy to take whatever the hell I wanted.

That wound up being a diverse combo of math, computer science, and occupational health & safety type classes. Fun in a way, but I burned out and dropped out because my credits were taking me SLOWLY down a zillion paths, rather than quickly and efficiently down one path.

College isn't for everybody, though. Nor is independent life. That's why there are group homes. But I feel more free not being in one.

[Nataly]

Is tertiary education valuable for those of you who have SB?

I’m a non-SB woman who never attended uni. I felt it wasn’t necessary for girls back then. As long as we mastered the IBM selectric typewriter and possessed decent comprehensive skills, a job wasn’t hard to come by. Properties were much more affordable, and it wasn’t hard for those who never attended uni to pay off their mortgage by their late 20s.

Unfortunately, times have changed. Knowing how to type means nothing these days. Property values are skyrocket high. Girls (SB or not) will be disadvantaged without a tertiary education. As my daughter’s SB doesn’t come with physical and cognitive impairments, I sent her to a college (private secondary school) to better prepare her for uni. We have decided to foot her 1st year uni bill (because she is only 17 on her 1st year), half of her 2nd and 3rd year uni fees.

Do you invest in your SB child’s tertiary education? Are SB children expected to pay for their tertiary education?

What is tertiary? College? Regardless, you're are the parent, in the states here parents pay for the kids eduation until they're at least 25. No kids gonna pull 7,000-20,000 bucks outta their pockets. :confused:

[LisaJoy]

Tertiary means after high-school -- so it can be any kind of college/university or a vocational or technical school. It's usually called post-secondary in the US, but they mean the same thing.

It is not true that all parents in the US pay for their kids' college. Many cannot. My sisters and I all paid our own way through with a small amount of help our parents were able to give (car insurance, health insurance, and the occasional gift of a plane ticket or a little cash). I put myself through 11 years of university (bachelors, 2 masters, and a phd) and only had one loan of 16,000, which I paid off in 5 years. My younger sister had the largest amount of loans, but I think she has them paid off.

I teach college and many of my traditional age students are putting themselves through school. Unfortunately, these days students usually have to take out quite a few loans. And they usually take out more than they need and run up credit card debt -- often because they don't know the meaning of deferred gratification! So they want all the latest gadgets and clothes and eat out all the time. I've had students come to me holding $400 phones (and I know the data packages they pay for cost $100/mo) and tell me they couldn't afford a $40 book for the class.

I also disagree with much of the complaining about loans. The average student loan in the US at the end of 5 years of undergraduate education is $20,000. That is about the price of a low-end new car or high-end used car. No one questions a 22-year-old about taking out a 60-month $20,000 loan for a car -- why is a $20K student loan such a bad thing? If you need loans to put yourself through school, take out the minimum you need to get by, drive a "beater" car (used Corollas are great!), and get a part-time job; live at home if you need to. You can get a great education without taking out $100,000 in loans.

BTW -- My 21-year-old niece has put herself through college by living at home, doing her basics in community college, and transferring to an excellent local state U. She works part-time at a veterinary practice, pays for her own car and phone. She'll soon graduate and go straight into grad school (she's doing speech-language pathology, which requires a graduate degree).

[Jill]

I have a savings plan for all 3 of my kids education. My parents helped out for part of my undergrad, but about 75% of it was me, as well as all of grad school and then my husbands way through law school. I'm 32 and we just paid off our education fully last year sometime. I wouldn't have it any other way, for various reasons.

We are saving up for the kids. Whatever educational route they choose to take after highschool, we will supplement, but it won't be a free ride. I anticipate encouraging all of them to continue with their education, King's SB really doesn't matter, nor do the girls' gender.

[LisaJoy]

Oddly enough, my parents always said that if they had the ability to help only one of us go to college, it would be me. They believed that BECAUSE of my sb, I had a greater need for a college education than my sisters -- i.e., since my sisters were able-bodied, they'd be able to wait tables or stand at a cash register or even do manual labor. (This was back in the 70s). There may also have been an unstated expectation that I wouldn't marry.

The one thing my parents made all three of us do was take typing in high school -- a whole year of it. They said that if you can type, you'll always be able to get a job. Not sure that's turned out to be true in the "new economy", but it sure has been an asset to have good keyboarding skills. BTW, at the end of that year, I could type 100 WPM on an IBM Selectric.

[dahliafaolan]

Oddly enough, my parents always said that if they had the ability to help only one of us go to college, it would be me. They believed that BECAUSE of my sb, I had a greater need for a college education than my sisters -- i.e., since my sisters were able-bodied, they'd be able to wait tables or stand at a cash register or even do manual labor. (This was back in the 70s). There may also have been an unstated expectation that I wouldn't marry.

The one thing my parents made all three of us do was take typing in high school -- a whole year of it. They said that if you can type, you'll always be able to get a job. Not sure that's turned out to be true in the "new economy", but it sure has been an asset to have good keyboarding skills. BTW, at the end of that year, I could type 100 WPM on an IBM Selectric.

Wow, that's a real feat. I've been on computers all my life and I can't manage a true 100 WPM even on a feather light keyboard. To be able to do that on an IBM Selectric, that's something.

My family was sort of the same way, Lisa. My mom helped raise my three cousins and while she always told them she expected them to go to college too, she didn't push them as much as me. She pretty much told me that I had no choice but to go to college. She flat out told me that my cousins could rely on their bodies to go to work (her way of saying they were able-bodied) but I would have to depend on my mind. And I had that unstated expectation of never marrying too. In fact, my mom has balked at the idea of me marrying any time I've gotten close. Though I'm not sure how much of that was because of my age at the time or the guy I was with and how much of it was my disability or her feminism. My mom was raised by a family that believed that girls didn't need an education or a job, just a husband to take care of her. In fact, my grandmother still believes that I went to college just to find a husband and that I'm just holding a job till I get married. Though I finally got it through her thick skull that I won't be giving her any great grandbabies, but I think she's happy with that now since she has five of them now from my three cousins.

[Nataly]

Tertiary means after high-school -- so it can be any kind of college/university or a vocational or technical school. It's usually called post-secondary in the US, but they mean the same thing.

It is not true that all parents in the US pay for their kids' college. Many cannot. My sisters and I all paid our own way through with a small amount of help our parents were able to give (car insurance, health insurance, and the occasional gift of a plane ticket or a little cash). I put myself through 11 years of university (bachelors, 2 masters, and a phd) and only had one loan of 16,000, which I paid off in 5 years. My younger sister had the largest amount of loans, but I think she has them paid off.

I teach college and many of my traditional age students are putting themselves through school. Unfortunately, these days students usually have to take out quite a few loans. And they usually take out more than they need and run up credit card debt -- often because they don't know the meaning of deferred gratification! So they want all the latest gadgets and clothes and eat out all the time. I've had students come to me holding $400 phones (and I know the data packages they pay for cost $100/mo) and tell me they couldn't afford a $40 book for the class.

I also disagree with much of the complaining about loans. The average student loan in the US at the end of 5 years of undergraduate education is $20,000. That is about the price of a low-end new car or high-end used car. No one questions a 22-year-old about taking out a 60-month $20,000 loan for a car -- why is a $20K student loan such a bad thing? If you need loans to put yourself through school, take out the minimum you need to get by, drive a "beater" car (used Corollas are great!), and get a part-time job; live at home if you need to. You can get a great education without taking out $100,000 in loans.

BTW -- My 21-year-old niece has put herself through college by living at home, doing her basics in community college, and transferring to an excellent local state U. She works part-time at a veterinary practice, pays for her own car and phone. She'll soon graduate and go straight into grad school (she's doing speech-language pathology, which requires a graduate degree).

I guess...but that's also because I'm not going to a 4-year University and paying thousands. I go to a community college. But no, I disagree with you (sorrry!) :sign0013: :happy065:, many kids now DO rely on their parents to pay. I'm not pulling out a loan and having to pay it back like my sister did when she went to John Hopkins University. And has had to pay it back till, the ripe age of 35. Here in Texas most people use a program called FAFSA, as a aid for school. It can come in grants, loans and I believe scholarships. However, a school as small as mine, sometimes do not take these aids, why:confused: I don't know. So I can only imagine, what students are paying at the bigger Universities.

Speech-language pathology, I never understood that career it helps with language disorders?.

[LisaJoy]

You are right that many parents pay for all or part of their kids' college education -- but your earlier post implied that all do. I was just pointing out that lots of people have to pay their own way.

FAFSA is the application for the federal student loan programs, so it is the same in all states. I'm very surprised that a community college will not take federal student aid -- that is extremely unusual, no matter the size of the college. Size has nothing to do with student eligibility for aid. Now, some private schools don't participate in federal loan programs because they don't want any strings attached (these are usually religious schools). At any rate, you are wise to start your education in a community college and limit the amount of loans you take out. For some professional fields, the prestige of the institution really matters in terms of your future employment. But most employers just want to know that you have a degree and don't place that much emphasis on where you got it. (Except that most are pretty wary of the online "diploma mills".) Take teachers for example -- in every state, they all have to pass the same qualifying exams for licensure, so it really doesn't matter that much where you get your degree, unless you want to go into higher levels of administration or want to get a PhD and teach in a teacher's college.

Speech & language pathologists work with people (mainly kids) who have impaired speech because of hearing loss, or brain injury, or lots of other things. I don't really know that much about it; sorry.

[NerdaliciouS]

My parents set up a college fund for me at a young age. There's not nearly enough to get through 4 years. The rest is either going to be from a scholarship/grant of some sort, or me, paying it all.

For some people. Loans may be an option. But for me? No way! I don't want loans. They'd be the VERY LAST resort and even then I STILL don't think I'd do that. People think it's ridiculous and just me being stubborn. But the way I look at it is, why would I want a loan if I could do it myself? What if I can't automatically jump into my career choice, I'd be stuck making tiny payments while the interest piled up. ...No thanks. :|

[sean]

In OZ your student loan is paid off through tax, and only when you're earning over something like 40 grand.